For our latest Astute Insights Podcast, we are catching up with Nina Pampel of Integrated Human Resourcing. We chat about the Top 5 Mistakes made during the recruitment process and how you can avoid them when hiring staff for your business.
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Astute Insights Show Notes
Soonah:
Hello and welcome back to the Astute Insights Podcast. The podcast is a progression from an idea that I had to educate small and medium sized business owners on all the problems that I’ve seen over the years. It aims to be short and sweet and provide helpful tips to implement into your business to help promote growth. And today we have the pleasure of talking to Nina from Integrated Human Resourcing. Nina has a double diploma in HR and Leadership Management and over 20 years experience. Welcome Nina.
Nina:
Hi Soonah, how are you?
Soonah:
Hey, I’m good. I thought we would just start by giving an overview of your career in HR from when you started in London and up to Australia today.
Nina:
Definitely. In London, I think it was about 2000, I originally started my career at a management consultancy firm in the city. I worked there until we moved to Australia which was in 2011. So my role there was as a practice manager so I was doing a lot of people management coordination. I wasn’t doing straight HR, but I was managing the department of probably about a hundred consultants.
Then we moved to Australia in 2011, initially to Sydney, then decided, better off it and moved to the Gold Coast where I did actually work for an NGO initially on the corporate side actually helping with compliance and quality and those kinds of things. And that then led me to actually start working with Renee at Integrated Human Resourcing where I was more focused on purely HR, HR work. So I’ve been there since, probably it’s six years now, so nearly six years.
Soonah:
Yeah. And I think that’s a good sign because that’s how we got to come and meet you and learn a bit about more what you do. So, one of the most troubling factors for business owners is always around staffing, it’s something that we see and it pops its head up all the time.
Nina:
Yeah.
Soonah:
It starts off, the questions are when to put on staff, where to find good staff, how much to pay them, when should I train them, what type of training, managing the workforce targets, KPIs, how to exit them, the list goes on. HR is quite a broad term in total when you’re talking about human resourcing. So, do you want us to give us a bit of a breakdown of kind of the areas that you specialize in?
Nina:
Yeah, not a problem. So yeah. Look, we’re generalist so we do cover all facets of HR. So that’s everything from the onboarding, so that’s the employee foundations from employment agreements, the policies and procedures, that of course, part of that procedure is a recruitment element which we do as well. And then the second element is I guess all the good stuff in the middle, once [inaudible 00:02:55] employee which is around training.
We do cultural reviews as well making sure that the culture of the business is correct. We have retention set strategies, salary reviews. Also, we can do all those things as well as the performance management and not just performance management but performance reviews so we can help businesses establish those and actually execute them. And then the third element of it really is I guess the off-boarding side of things. So that’s anything from the standard resignation exits to terminations and redundancies. So we can support any business through the whole employee cycle.
Soonah:
Yeah. And it is quite a big cycle, isn’t it? And I think during the time that you do have staff, it’s not you have staff and it gets put to the side, it’s just this revolving circle that continually goes around. So what we were going to kind of focus on today was I hear that wages and the cost of staffing is a big chunk of expenses and it’s generally spoken about in a negative light from business owners.
I wanted to sort of flip that on its head today in getting business owners to consider that staffing is sort of their biggest asset. And with that in mind, when business owners purchase their biggest assets, like when they’re talking purchasing commercial trucks or new equipment that’s going to make things quicker and faster and easier, there’s most certainly always a process involved in that. They do their research, they compare offers, you take it for a test drive, you ask around your mates. It’s really the same process when putting on staff and I guess that’s called the recruitment process.
Nina:
Yes.
Soonah:
But it’s sort of something that’s very much overlooked in the initial stages of your business growth and putting on staff so I’m glad that you’re joining us here today. And what you’re going to share with us is your top five tips or five mistakes that people make during that recruitment process. I’ll sum them up quickly now and then I’ll throw it over to you to kind of expand on them and give us a little bit more insight.
So number one, we’ve got that there’s no job description. So, it’s done sort of haphazardly. We’ve got no consideration for the team fit if you already have employees in that business. Lack of preparation for that process, leaving good candidates hanging at the end of that, and no pre-employment checks. So, that’s the five mistakes that we’re going to talk about today and I’m going to hand it over to you to explain to us a little bit further what that all means.
Nina:
All right, lovely. So, the first one that you mentioned about not having a PD, it’s really also around the fact that we find a lot of businesses just don’t do that initial job analysis. So what’s really important is that you understand the role that you’re actually trying to recruit for. First of all, does it actually exist? Do you need it? And what’s included in that role? So, we often see that an employer tries to fit all lots of random things into it and then they try and look for that employee which doesn’t really exist because then they want that perfect fit into a role that hasn’t really been thought out properly.
Nina:
And so the best way to go about making sure you’re reviewing that properly is to do a bit of a job analysis. Check what the needs of the business are, really understand what roles and responsibilities are going to come into that role and the skillset that you’re actually looking for.
Soonah:
I guess that’s kind of like a list, isn’t it?
Nina:
Yeah.
Soonah:
Of what you actually require this person to do. Just start putting pen to paper and going, “Okay, what exactly do I want this employee to do for us?”
Nina:
Exactly. And then you’re going through that thought process, aren’t you? Really trying to understand what it is that the business needs and sometimes when they haven’t gone through it, they just make a snap judgment of what they need. And it’s only when they start looking at people, they realize that, “Oh, actually that’s not what we’re looking for,” but they’ve advertised for something that they haven’t needed so they get applicants that don’t really fit the bill.
So, it’s really important, we can’t stress it enough, that you do that review, you do that analysis, and you do that position description, and that will help you go through the process. And there’s been times with some businesses where they’ve then decided not to recruit because actually they figured out that that’s not a full role and so-and-so can do an element of it or they’ve waited until they’ve actually really needed the role.
Soonah:
Yeah. Is there a shift from full time to sort of doing two part-time if you’ve done that list of what you need and that the two maybe kind of got two roles there, they’re sort of mushing together that it’s actually is two separate roles, you’re not going to get that person to do one?
Nina:
Sometimes, or it’s about sometimes as well when you’re recruiting, thinking a little bit outside the box and looking at people who’ve got transferable skills as well which sometimes businesses don’t. They decide they want exactly someone who could do those things which is very rare unless someone’s involved with the business. And sometimes it becomes two roles or two part-time roles because you want, as in anything, you want someone who’s good at the bit that you want them to be good at. So it can. Yeah, for sure.
Soonah:
Okay. Let’s move on to number two.
Nina:
Oh, yeah, this is a good one.
Soonah:
So, the cultural fit for the team.
Nina:
It’s really important. Sometimes businesses think they want similar people on a team which doesn’t always work. You’ve got to find a really good fit of different personalities and people who behave in certain ways for a team. So, when you’re recruiting, you’ve got to see how they’re going to fit in with the team. If you’re going to have two hot heads, that’s not going to work.
Soonah:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:08:57] DISC profiling system, we should implement. Yeah, okay.
Nina:
Yeah, we do. And so we do a lot of DISC profiling as well. So, with some businesses who are I guess a little bit bigger, we’ve got the ideal for certain roles, but then we also look at the whole team profile as well to see how people are going to fit and it doesn’t mean that you’ve got the wrong profile, but it’s how you communicate with each other. But sometimes an employer will just look at the skillsets and their qualifications and not really assess whether they’re actually going to be a fit for the business. And I guess I’m talking culturally and value-wise. It’s really important that values align with the team as well because if they don’t, it’s just not going to work. You’re going to constantly be butting heads.
Soonah:
Yeah. Kind of setting yourself up for failure, isn’t it. And as I say, the team is your biggest asset. So if we can get them all kind of working together, and you kind of nailed it, there the vision or the values. And I say, that mission statement, the values of the business, if it’s all aligned, you’ve got bigger room for success and growth. So I agree with that one. Let’s go to number three. I have definitely been guilty of this one in the past.
Nina:
Yes. Okay. So I’ve had a mixture of experience with how people interview. Some people would just go in headstrong and ask a few questions and make a snap decision. Look, in our experience, it’s really important to be prepared when you’re interviewing candidates especially if you’ve got quite a few or you’re looking for specific things.
So, we’d recommend that you set up a interview guide with competency and behavioral questions as well as skill-based and really ask those same questions to each candidate so then you can almost do a matrix of the response, because you forget.
So if you’re not interviewing all together, you’ll forget. If you’re interviewing over a week, you won’t remember the first candidate or one person might stick out, but it’s often you remember that almost the first and the last candidate of the day. So it’s important that you’ve got set questions. Of course you can add extra or go in a certain direction if needed or prefer but it’s really important that you’re organized so then you feel confident as well with the questions that you’re asking.
Nina:
Then you’ve got good notes because that’s the other thing. It’s really important that you document your interview notes. For rating purposes, it’s actually a requirement.
Soonah:
Yeah. I think this is one skill that I’ve definitely gotten better at over time. So, I’ve got a bookkeeping business and in the last sort of interviews, I think as a business owner, you take for granted, I’m advertising for a bookkeeper that I assume that everyone that applies for that role actually understands that role. So, one of the questions that we put in there was, “Can you tell us about your average day as a bookkeeper?” And yeah, it’s amazing some of the responses from that, it really highlighted those that had lack of experience or that previous roles were very narrow to just accounts payable or just accounts receivable. So that little question that we asked across the candidates was actually mind-blowing for me. I didn’t realize how important that kind of was.
Nina:
It’s a really good question. It’s kind of, we found that when we’re recruiting for let’s say marketing roles, because somebody can say they’re a marketing expert, but when they work in bigger firms, they’re only a small element of it. And then you they don’t really have that breadth of experience that you need for the role. So I can’t stress enough how important it is that you look at what you’re recruiting for and you base your questions on the role and what you’re looking for and also about your cultural fit and your values.
Soonah:
Yeah, definitely. And I think that’s all just in preparation. Previously I’d kind of go into them and gone, oh, “Why’d you leave your last job? Why do you want this job?” Very generic kind of questions and nothing to do with getting the right person for our team or for our role so.
Nina:
It’s hard. I always ask in my interviews what they’re looking for from their next job.
Soonah:
Yeah.
Nina:
And their employers. What is going to keep them loyal and what’s going to keep them there. And you often get quite a few things come out in that because they kind of go off that standard and then they talk about their own wants and needs which is important to make sure that they align with what you’re looking for as well.
Soonah:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s definitely. We could kind of talk about those questions for a while.
Nina:
Yeah.
Soonah:
I’ve definitely found being way more prepared and structured in my interviews definitely kept me going. So now we’re going to move on to number four which is leaving good candidates hanging. And this is obviously after we’ve completed all of the interviews.
Nina:
Yeah. So we find we do lose a lot of good candidates because the business takes a while to get back to them or just not keeping in touch. Now, look, we know that things are always evolving and changing in businesses and you may be recruiting and you may have to push things back a couple of weeks, but what is so important is that you keep in touch with that candidate and you’re honest, and you kind of keep them in the loop. So, if you’ve got a really good candidate, I can’t stress enough how important it is to keep in touch. What I often do is they have their interview, I then actually give it a day or two and then follow up just to get feedback from them as well.
Soonah:
Yeah. Yeah.
Nina:
So then you know that you’re keeping in touch and then you drop them an email saying, “Sorry, I haven’t gotten back to you yet but we will be able to get back to you or at least give you some feedback by a certain time. With that, I think it’s important and it’s important that you actually do what you say you’re going to do.
Soonah:
Yeah.
Nina:
Because that’s what… Often people they’re just left hanging and I think there’s nothing worse than them actually trying to get in touch with you just because they’re following up. And I think then you kind of you’re giving the unprofessional image of the company as well.
Soonah:
Yeah. And I guess by reconnecting with them, they’re not kind of expecting your call so much, after all you emailed so their response can also give you I guess a little bit of an insight into their phone manner, their email manner, if that’s the type of role that you’re recruiting for as well I guess.
Nina:
Yeah.
Soonah:
And let’s finish it off with no pre-employment checks, another good one that I have been guilty of.
Nina:
Good one.
Nina:
So often I’ve heard from a few people that I’ve worked with that there’s no point, people only give references of people that they know are going to give them a good reference or it’s friends or especially in this day and age, you always get a mobile number generally rather than a landline number. But in all the time I’ve been doing recruiting, it’s amazing how many people actually give a really honest reference and we’ve had several times where yeah, the reference hasn’t been good, maybe they haven’t checked.
So it is important to do those reference checks and ideally you want to talk to the most recent employer. It’s not always easy if they’re still working there. You want to do at least two reference checks. Not everybody does police checks but some companies do. So, that’s also worth considering. And then now obviously we do social media.
Soonah:
I was actually going to ask that. Do you do a bit of a background, a bit of a snoop thing?
Nina:
Yeah, we do. It’s not always easy because a lot of people do close down their social media accounts but there’s ways around that, I guess you can get. Look, there’s been a couple of instances where we may not have kind of gone into that much data on them. We’ve later found out when the accounts become a bit more visible that yeah, the person definitely was a right fit with the DISC.
Soonah:
Also for, I don’t know whether I should mention this, or whether you can do it. But anyway, I looked up a candidate on Facebook, their account was very private, but I could see that we had a mutual friend. So actually I got in contact with that mutual friend and said, “Hi. Such and such has come for a role. What would you think?” So, it’s a review from someone I guess that I knew or that I liked and I think, I didn’t end up going with that person, but I definitely got an insight into that person from doing that. So, yeah, it was….
Nina:
I think, and especially on the Gold Coast, it’s a small place so you’ll find that people know each other. But yeah, it’s got to be part of the process. You inform the candidate, you let them know that you’re going to… You ask them references and you let them know you’re going to call them. And some also include medicals as well, it depends on nature the role. Then as well as the pre-employment, especially with a lot of the onboarding platforms and in general as well, we automatically set up other checks so they’ve got to provide ID, licenses. And [inaudible 00:18:28] some of the industries, you need them to have a clean license and car and all those kinds of things. So we set all that up. And then we work in the medical industry so all the registrations, all that needs to be done.
Soonah:
I was going to say, and that’s part of the planning that we talked about at the start. I’ve heard of a business before that has gone through that whole process. And then when it was time for them to turn up to work and get into the vehicle, they were like, “Oh, I don’t have a manual license.” So they’d gone through this whole process and this poor young guy was pretty much not equipped for the role that they had. And no fault of his own. It’s just that there was no planning or preparation done at the start of that.
Nina:
And especially with certain roles, I think it’s just that checklist question at the beginning. Have you got [inaudible 00:19:20]? You’ve got [inaudible 00:19:20]. You [inaudible 00:19:22].
Soonah:
Yeah, exactly. So I’m going, because I’m trying to keep them under 20 minutes so that people can enjoy them. So I’m going to sum up very quickly what we spoke about. We talked about our five mistakes during the recruitment process. So number one, we’ve got not analyzing your own needs, roles and requirements. And that comes down to really having the right job description. Number two is not taking into consideration the team fit when interviewing. Number three is not being prepared with interview questions relevant to the role and the person that you’re looking for. And you mentioned there, I made notes, ask a mixture of experience, competency, and behavioral questions, which I think is really good because you’re not only employing for just that role, but it does take into account the culture of the business in there as well.
Soonah:
Number four was leaving good candidates hanging. So if it’s a slow or a long drawn out process, don’t ignore them, try and get back to them. And the final one we finished on is people sort of brush off not doing the preemployment checks, the police checks, reference checks, social media, things like that. So, I really do thank you for your time today but I am going to finish on a rapid fire for questions.
Nina:
Yep.
Soonah:
You’re not allowed to think about it. I want you to just answer them as quickly as possible. Your favorite thing about COVID.
Nina:
Being at home.
Soonah:
Perfect. The first CD you ever purchased?
Nina:
I think it must have been Michael Jackson.
Soonah:
Yeah, nice. And, current book that you’re reading?
Nina:
Oh gosh, I’ve forgotten what it’s called. It’s by the author of The Bride Stripped Bare, I’ve forgotten the name of the book.
Soonah:
I might put it in the notes and ask you after. And your worst habit.
Nina:
Well, my worst habit? Stressing about everything.
Soonah:
Well, I guess you’re in the right role then I guess. So, thank you Nina for joining us today. Nina is from Integrated Human Resources based on the Gold Coast. How can people get in contact with you if they want to learn a bit more about what you do?
Nina:
They can drop me an email at ninap@humanresourcing.com.au or just give me a call on 0422647005.
Soonah:
No worries. Thank you very much for a little top five mistakes. We’ve only just scratched the surface on human resourcing, for the process, but the first steps are there. So I hope that we have helped some people today. So thanks for your time.
Nina:
Thank you.